Managing Your Mental Health for Graphic Designers

Massimo: [00:00:00] What's up designers? Before we dive into this episode, I just wanted to give you a heads up that we're gonna be discussing some pretty sensitive topics today, and it might even be difficult for some people to hear. We're not here to belittle or dismiss anyone's experience. Mental illness affects everyone differently, and we wanna acknowledge that.

Our experiences are unique to us as yours are to you. Our recommendations on how we deal with it come from a good place, but they may not necessarily work for everyone, and that's okay. We respect and support everybody's journey with mental illness. We know that mental illness can be difficult and personal subject for some people to talk about, and that's why we want to make sure that everybody listening feels comfortable.

Our goal as. Is to provide a platform for open, honest, no bullshit type of communication, and bring awareness to the importance of mental illness in graphic design, breaking down some of the stigmas associated with it in [00:01:00] our industry and any industry really. We hope that you find this episode informative, helpful, and we appreciate you joining us on this journey.

So sit back, grab a drink, and enjoy. Mood swings. Mood swings. Yes. Huge. Yes. Okay. And not just angry right, but like also irritability. Yeah. All of a sudden, like you just wanna rip somebody's fucking head off. Yep. Right. Just for no reason at all. But like, good morning, you're like, fuck, how dare you? Why are you so fucking happy?

You know, like, right. How about anger, sadness, all these other mood swings. The shit, the shit's real. It happens right. Go.

You're listening to the Angry Designer where we cut through the industry bowl to help frustrated graphic designers survive and thrive.

Ooh, today we are drinking a bourbon. We're back to bourbon. We're. [00:02:00] Four Roses. Small batch. Hmm. Not a big fan of the name. I'm sure there's some history towards this name, but I wish it was something a little bit more badass.

Shawn: You know, it reminds me of Welcome to the Jungle. Yeah. Four Roses. Ah, right. It's like a Guns and Roses thing.

Something. Yeah. Guns and Roses. Nazi, that's what a should be called. Guns and Roses. Guns

Massimo: and, oh, that would actually be a great,

Shawn: perfect, right? Yeah, that'd be a good bird. You're right. Four roses just sounds kind of it.

Massimo: Badass Bourn. It's not, no, but, but it's got a great flavor to it. I mean, it's full flavored.

I mean, today was just like, you know, we need something that's just gonna like, yeah. You know? Cause he's got a pretty heavy topic here to talk. We got a heavy topic and it was just like, you know, I need something that's got full body that, you know, hopefully I won't drink too much during, geez. But like literally lately, dreams have felt like it's been almost overwhelming.

Mm-hmm. There's just between work between running the business. Yep. You know, of course I personally got kids going on as well. Mm-hmm. Right. One of them is sick right now. Like it's just, [00:03:00] you know, and then again people here are sick. Like I do feel like sometimes going a little mental. Yep. Right.

Shawn: Yes, absolutely.

It can, it certainly can wear you down. Absolutely can. The longer it goes.

Massimo: Right. Yeah. And, but you know what the funny thing is? So the benefit mm-hmm. The benefit, you know, design is very individual. Yes. Right? Yes. It's an individualist type of like business you're in. Right? Yeah. Like look at like a Alan Peters fucking awesome guy, right?

Yeah. But he's working very much alone. Yep. You know, at home, you know, of course his wife sometimes works 'em, but she's also, you know, caring for the kids Yep. While he's working cuz they homeschool and everything. Mm-hmm So it's like a very individualistic, self-focused. Kind of, you know, approach, right?

Yes. And, you know, a pursuit one that's not necessarily, we are different, right? Mm-hmm. Because again, I've got you mm-hmm. I come in, I, I talk to you mm-hmm. On a regular basis. Yeah. I talk to the team on a regular basis, right? Mm-hmm. You know, we break up some, like insanity, you know, we break it up with conversations with, you know, our, our, you know, all of our Game of Thrones talks.

How's the dragon talk? Mandalorian [00:04:00] the last of us. You know like, and again, we talk about art and stuff, like we have this open culture, right? Yes. And again, we also talk pretty openly about a cut. Really weird shit, right? Yeah. Like I mean, everything that you hear about we, so we're very lucky. Yes. You know, and interesting conversation today.

Holy, was that right? Right. And again, and this is what I love about this place, and again, it was soon cuz I thought the conversation was going one way. Yes. It went the other, I

Shawn: wasn't really sure. And it was just like, what the hell? I had nothing to

Massimo: worry about. And again, we've got, you know, we got young.

Old. Mm-hmm. And it's cool because the environment is really, it's open and, and it's, yes, we're really fortunate Yep. For this. Right. We're not siloed

Shawn: at all in this place. No, not at all. Which is great. And if you, you know, if a team member needs help or something like that, they will reach out or I will do the same,

Massimo: you know, but, but sense, I mean, in all fairness, this profession can.

Take its toll on you. This is true. It true. Definitely take its toll on your mental health. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of what we are. Well, no, that is what we're here to talk about today. Right. That's exactly what we're here talking about. Absolutely. Like, I mean, again, it's, you know, we're very fortunate.

Mm-hmm. Cuz we can vent to [00:05:00] one another. Yeah. We've got this podcast to event to vent too. But you know, for most designers, they work very independently. Yes. Right. Some of them are Lance. Some of them work from home. Mm-hmm. Some of them work in an environment, but they're introverted and they're quiet. Yeah.

And they're withheld. Yep. And other wardens, you know, like, okay, then there's obviously gonna be some in this kind of group atmosphere, but they might not have this. Open kind of dialogue like we have on a regular basis. Yes. Right? Yes, yes. So what I think the point of today is, is to, you know, to talk all about this.

Mm-hmm. Make everybody aware of what's going on, what's out there, you know? Mm-hmm. And like really like what we're I really in for here? Yes. Because if there's one thing that I'm seeing is a lot of our viewers, or a lot of our listeners, a lot of our angry designers, a lot of viewers or listeners or followers, a lot of our angry designers, Are young, upcoming designers.

Mm-hmm. And they keep telling us how much they appreciate this and we're helping them, you know, with their school and get their first jobs and everything. Yep. And, um, mental health is a real issue in this space. Yes. Right. And so I think, you know, we would be doing a [00:06:00] disservice if we don't finally talk

Shawn: about this.

Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. I think this is, uh, well certainly one of those topics. It's a bit of a tender one. It is a tender one. Right. So, and we, we will tread as

Massimo: light as we can. Well, and that's the crazy thing, right? Yeah. Because again, it's from edge to edge. Mm-hmm. It's so different the way people, and I mean, of course we're taking a little bit more of an angry approach to this, but yes.

Not a dick approach to this. We're not gonna be like the seventies bullies on this and

Shawn: telling

Massimo: up kid, because that's not what this is actually about. Yes. But a little bit. It is. Yes. All right. Yes. So let's just, you know, at a very high level. Yeah. Okay. This is a crazy space. Yep. Okay. So let's talk about some common challenges designers face on a regular basis that can totally fuck up your mental wellbeing.

Yes. Like, I mean, let's just call it what it is, right? You know, number one, we've got this constant pressure to produce creativity. Yes. Okay. And some people take that for granted. They think it's nothing. Oh, you got to draw all day. You're just in front of a computer, how fun it is. But to sit there and have to.[00:07:00]

On demand over and over. Granted, the more experience you have, the more you know, uh, the longer you do this, the more experience you can lean from. Mm-hmm. Pull from. Mm-hmm. Some days if I'm not feeling creative, I can just, I'm like, you know what? I did something like this last year. I'll just copy it.

Appropriate that exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, this. Can lead to this constant, constant pushing workout can lead to anxiety. Mm-hmm. Stress, you know, self-doubt if you can't keep up with clients or with your jo your boss's requests. Yep. Your customer's requests. Right. Or your even your peers. Yeah.

Right. Or if you're work in a team environment, your team, cuz you don't want to be responsible for letting them down. Right. Exactly. So, and then especially that, that doesn't even talk about if you're like in a. Because that adds a whole new, new layer.

Shawn: That's Yeah.

Massimo: That is a, right, yes. Long hours. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yeah. So granted, we work very hard to keep this environment like a nine to 5, 8 30, to five 30 if you have to. Yep. Right. Type scenario. Mm-hmm. That seems to be uncommon in this

Shawn: space. It is. It totally is. Yes. Like, um, [00:08:00] that agency that we worked with at the, the Oh, in Vegas? Yes, in Vegas. They had a very different approach to what our mantra.

Get shit done, right? Hell yeah. Theirs was, it'll get done.

Massimo: Eventually it will get done. Let's another, let's it down.

Shawn: Let's have another conversation above nothing. And I'm like, this is insane. I don't know. I don't know why anybody would wanna work a 16 hour day when you don't necessarily have to me to. Yes.

Yes. It drives me nuts. Now. Now, that's not to say that we don't have that here. Yeah. Even here, we've had late nights doing it's, it happens. It's very, very rare.

Massimo: Rarely, yes. But it does happen. But it does happen. But you're right. Like, I mean, again, we adopt to get shit done mentality. That's exactly it. Right?

We don't dittle doddle on meetings. Mm-hmm. I won't get on, and we've talked about this in past episodes. Yep. I won't get onto a phone call and spend an hour, you know, book an hour of my time to have 15 minutes worth of work talk, and then just hang over another 45 minutes and talk about life and this and that.

So many people do that. Yeah. It's just like, no, I just got back [00:09:00] 45 fucking minutes. Yes, thank you. I'm gonna use that. I don't even have hour long meetings. My meetings half an hour. Half an hour, and I make. But dude, you're right. Yeah. So many people don't work that way. This is true. And what happens is they end up with long hours.

Yes. That leads to burnout. Mm-hmm. It leads to fatigue. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and, and it really, really fucks up your work life. Yeah. Balance. And I know that that's such an overused term, but it's such a really important one that people need to remember. Yes. Right. This is true. Yeah. You're

Shawn: not gonna. Parents or husband or boyfriend or whatever.

Anything. If you're running ragged at work and your mental health is absolutely being strained, you know, like, yeah, this is this. These are very valid, very real things.

Massimo: Deadlines. Yeah. Okay. Ooh, deadlines. Oof. Cause a lot of stress on people. All right. We've always, always got deadlines to deal with.

Sometimes they're bigger than others. Sometimes they're just frivolous deadlines. But sometimes it's like, you know what? You've got to get this out by Friday. Five o'clock. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, the [00:10:00] whole schedule is fucked. Yes. Right. Yeah. And that creates a high stress environment if you're not careful, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It leads to stress, anxiety, you know, your, your, your feelings as you know, you're being overwhelmed, you know, it's an overwhelming feeling like, That actually, you know, I think, you know, plays with people's minds more than, more than almost anything else because again, it just seems like everything compounds that they focus on that too much.

Yes. Right. Yes. At that, at that goal, right? Yes. And I mean, we'll talk about that a little bit later, but I think, uh, deadlines is actually

Shawn: a big cause of this. It's huge. Yeah. Cuz there's, I've never met a graphic designer who has not been touched by a deadline. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? It is common. Ev.

Everybody in this space,

Massimo: especially when they're unrealistic. Exactly. And we try to meet them. Yes. Right. And there's

Shawn: a lot of that. Absolutely. Clients will push the limits, for sure.

Massimo: Well, and that goes on to the next one, right. Clients. Clients and managing their expectations. Okay. Exactly. That's probably one of, if not the biggest, you know, stress causing mental health, [00:11:00] whatever you want to call it, you know?

Mm-hmm. Is customers. Right. Is can lead to stress, anxiety, you know, messes up your work life balance. Right. Especially if you can't make. Their expectations and your creative expectations come together. Yeah. Right? Yes. Then often, you know, they try to run the show. Mm-hmm. You don't know how to talk to them.

Yep. Communication starts breaking down. Yep. You know, and this has nothing to do with, you know, the last one, of course. And that's if they give you really shitty feedback. Okay. But let's, like, let, let's back up before we hit the feedback, you know? Right. Clients are a huge, if not the biggest cause of all this, right?

Yeah. Because you're constantly, every single. Is for a client, often a very different client, right? Yes. Yep. Or several different clients. Yep. And you're trying to meet all their expectations. Mm-hmm. You're trying to produce good work. Mm-hmm. And you know, unfortunately, it doesn't always go your way. Yes.

Whether the client changes, whether they keep adding scope change, but they don't increase your rate. Yep. Your budget or your timeline. Yep. Which is another classic one. Right, right. Like, so scope creep is just like a huge part of [00:12:00] this and it's a huge cause of stress and, and mental, I don't even know, what is this word?

We want mental, I don't wanna say mental illness. Stressors. Stressors, mental wellbeing. And it, it triggers wellbeing It. Right. That's good. Sure, sure. Yeah. And then of course, last but not least, you know, criticism and feedback. Ah, yes. Okay. And I think this one is the one that, that, you know, along with customers that fucks people up the most.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Because again, if it's not constructive, You know, feedback or criticism. Mm-hmm. You know, or it's usually overly negative. Yes. Right. Yeah. And that's the kicker cuz people take it so damn personal. Right? Yeah. This leads to feelings of self-doubt, inadequacy, you know, let alone, um, imposter syndrome.

Yes. Okay. Which is a whole nother issue altogether. Mm-hmm. But again, you know the wrong feedback we've had at an episode on feedback, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the wrong. Feedback seems to, you know, hit people in the worst ways and they don't know how to handle that. Yes. Right. Yeah. And they, and they just, they they just absorb it.

Yeah. They take it in. Yeah. You know, they, they kind of put it in a little ball and bury it deep in your [00:13:00] stomach.

Shawn: Right. Yeah. Let it sit there and fester. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, and we're a sensitive lot too, right? We, we take a lot of this stuff. To heart a lot. Well,

Massimo: which, because designers need to be, have, we need to be, you know, empaths.

Exactly. We need to, we need to have a huge sense of, you know, empathy for our customers, our jobs. Right. We need to care. We need to give a shit. Yeah, exactly. And if we don't Yeah, well then it's not the right space for that. Right? Yeah, exactly. But I mean, again, that's what keeps us prone to all this,

Shawn: right?

This is not a job to work at if you're all dead inside, right?

Massimo: Yeah. Right. Or you just want to kind of get shit out the door. I don't care. So, I mean, this is just a handful, a handful of reasons, you know, that really mess up our mental wellbeing. Right. And these are common things. There's obviously, there's obviously many, many more, but these are some of the high level ones that we have to deal with.

Yeah. And the thing is, you know, environments like this where we have mm-hmm. We talk about this, we rant about this, you know, we're constant, we're okay in other environments. It's not so open. Mm-hmm. Right. And I'm not talking about if you're working by yourself or you're kind of hiding in a corner. Mm-hmm.[00:14:00]

But some environments, people aren't encouraged to speak Yes. About this kind of stuff. Whether they're constantly scared of, you know, being ridiculed or, oh, what am I trying to think of here? Just living in fear kind of thing about Well, right. Or no, no, exactly. The repercussions of it. Right. Like they're scared that if they speak up or say the wrong thing, everybody's gonna be like, I can't believe you just said that.

Oh my God. Who are you? You know, I didn't think you live like it's, cuz again, it's a pretty touchy outat world there right now. Everybody really is offended by fucking everything. This is true. And you're scared to, again, how much I appreciate our place here. Exactly. You know? I know, right? The wrong person in this environment could totally fuck up everything that we've got going.

But again, it's open policy, open door policy. Right. We known that nobody here is genuinely out to hurt anybody. Exactly. So if shit gets said, yeah. It's okay. It's more for understanding, right. Just like today, we went and brought a topic to everybody. Mm-hmm. And I thought it was gonna go one

Shawn: way. Yeah. I honestly did.

But it was, it was quite warmly received, which I

Massimo: [00:15:00] know. This is great. It was great, right? Yeah. So, again, it's cool, but again, I could see people being like, oh, I can't believe you do that. Yeah. You know, who are you? Right, right. I could totally see it. I, so, you know, there is this stigma, you know, which, You know, in so many different ways mm-hmm.

About mental illness and mental wellbeing. Right. Yeah. And again, it's, it's people's discrimination of people who are having issues or thinking about it, you know, it's also people's beliefs mm-hmm. On this, you know, and your own beliefs. Mm-hmm. On what the, you know, what people are thinking. Like, are you, are they gonna think that I'm a woos?

Are they gonna think that I can't handle this environment? Are they gonna pass me out for job opportunities? Right. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of stigmas around this. Yep. You know, and, and in all fair. I was more leaning to one side initially than the other. Right. Until we started talking about this a little bit more.

Exactly. Like, you know, like, again, it's, I was always of, of the belief that just, you know, toughen up man up. Like, what's the matter with you? And it's, you know, it's true. Cuz that's the way, you know, I, I held it and we were

Shawn: brought up that way. And that's not to say that that was wrong. [00:16:00] Right.

Massimo: Not wrong or

Shawn: right or right.

It was just how we

Massimo: were brought. Exactly. I remember I went to an inner city school. Mm-hmm. Okay. And in, in my school, fucking great school for the record. Fucking pissed. We had everything. We had, you know, people that already went to juvie, you know, all the way to these colorful bunch. Yeah. Right. All the way to these crazy ass, super preppy, rich kids.

Oh. And everybody lived in the same school. Everybody hung out in the same cafeteria. But. You know, you had your corner over here with these guys and you had this corner over here with those guys and the crappies over there. Like it was exactly like the TV shows make it out to be, or, or it's

Shawn: like some kind of wonderful, remember that movie?

It was, it was

Massimo: wrong side of the track. Right? It really was. And it's funny cuz I remember, you know, you hang out with enough of these people and you've realized that, you know, on one side you've got all these people that have got dysfunctional home lives. Mm-hmm. Parents are alcoholics. Yep. You know, some parents are working multiple jobs, some kids don't even see their parents.

Mm-hmm. You know, because their parents didn't give a shit and they're toughen it out and struggling trying to, you know, finish school. And you [00:17:00] got these other kids who are so rich, come to the school and they're, they're little golf Cabrio leis, you know, playing wham. Right. And it was, And then you got these, so these kids, right, who had these, you know, from the outside looking in these perfect lives.

Mm-hmm. And they're like, well, it's perfect. So I need to come up with some sort of ailment, a personal, I'm fat, I'm this an imaginary drama. And it's just like, dude, like you have. Everything given to you. Yes. Right. And I get the pressures that come along with that. But look at the pressures. Someone who's sitting two seats beside you here mm-hmm.

Who, you know, struggling. Struggling Yes. Beyond belief. Yes. You know, can barely, you know, like have no fucking heat or hydrated. Yeah. So it's like I lived in that environment. Yeah. So I was very jaded. Yes. You know, and, and the way I was brought up, my parents worked. They came from nothing. Yes. And I mean, fucking nothing.

Yeah. It was the stories, they break their heartbreaking, it's hard to believe people lived like this. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, again, It's easy for me to sit there and be like, what the fuck? You know, what are you complaining about? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I was very jaded, yeah. About this issue until talking to more people [00:18:00] and realizing that it's not just all the way you're brought up, the way you're brought up.

It's not just you know, your environment, but you know, in a lot of cases it's. It's genetics. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of cases, you know, you're, you're predispositioned not to be able to handle stress. Mm-hmm. That, you know, anxiety, you know, you can easily get anxious. Yep. Right. And self-conscious.

And there's a lot more things at play here other than just what side of the tracks you were raised on. Mm-hmm. And is it fake? Are you just looking for attention? So, so, I mean, that was possibly, you know, they had some trauma, like trauma, not drama. Yeah. Trauma, trauma. Yes. That, you know, has now led to things like this.

So there are other things. So, I mean, sadly I was one way with the stigma. Yeah. And, and my thoughts on whole mental illness. And now I'm kind of a little bit more open to it. Yes. And I'm realizing it, it's not so black and white.

Shawn: Exactly. Yes. It's very, uh, it, it's a very real. Kind of topic. Right. Which, you know, and I've, I've kind of my, like my father is a highly anxious dude.

Really? [00:19:00] Oh, big time. Yeah. He's like, he has

Massimo: Sean, what did you do to him?

Shawn: He has probably raising me. You had something to do with that? No, but I, he had social anxiety, like couldn't really deal with crowds and things like that. And it's like, I kind of have that a little bit, but it's one of those things where I was like, Well, this is the fucking space that I'm in.

This is who I am. I'm a musician. Yeah. I'm gonna have to talk to people who approach me on stage and things like that. Absolutely. You know what I mean? So you just kind of end up working with it and trying to overcome your fears. And this is the stigma that, you know, I know it's, it's. Probably wrong. Like this whole, you gotta overcome it.

It's a, it's

Massimo: a thing. You do have to

Shawn: overcome it. But there is something to say, something to be said about that. Yeah. I realize that this is an illness. Yeah, for sure. Like anything

Massimo: else, whether it's, you know, mile or, or, or major. Something that you gotta work on. Exactly.

Shawn: But I guess the way we [00:20:00] were raised is we, Had to just kind of

Massimo: deal with that stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And we dealt it

Shawn: in different ways. Yeah, like, I mean, think of what you've had to do. You've, you've had to create this business. Oh, fuck. You know what I mean? I couldn't imagine. There's a lot of glad handing, there's a lot of going around to, to places and meeting clients and things like that and reaching Absolutely.

People, you know what I mean? You're

Massimo: a social guy. Yeah. In some ways I am. Yeah. But you know, not that's, not that could think always, but

Shawn: Yeah. But that would, that would kind of wear on you after a while. Absolutely. And it kind of break it down a little bit,

Massimo: maybe, you know? Yeah. Oh absolutely It does. It has, it takes its toll no matter how successful.

Yeah. How uncomfortable you'll have your days where your energy's high, you'll have your days when your energy's

Shawn: low, but you still have to

Massimo: be on. Exactly. And you still have to be on, cuz this is, this is the life I chose. Yes. This is the, the career I chose. This is it. And you know, for the most, I, I wouldn't change, actually.

Not for the most part. I wouldn't change a single thing. No, no. You know, I really wouldn't actually, you know what I would change. Yeah. I wish I was charging the rates I do now. 12 years earlier, I would get rid of a little bit of stress. I'm not gonna lie, [00:21:00] but you know, I didn't have the Angry Designer podcast to help me through this, so Damn those guys.

Shawn: That's

Massimo: funny. Yeah. But, but, but it's true. The problem is if I was to let this get the better of me. Yes. Right. It would affect so many parts of what we do on a daily basis. Right. Totally. Like creativity and innovation, 100%. Mm-hmm. You know, if I was to let mental health, you know, get to me all of a sudden, you know, like anxiety, depression, burnout, this is, this would all kill any sort of creativity, you know, innovation, innovative ideas, problem solving that I would have.

Yes. Right. Yep. I didn't get a hold of it somehow. Mm-hmm. And try to recognize it. Productivity, efficiency. Yeah. Yeah. Right out the window. Yep. Because again, if I'm dealing with anxiety or depression or burnout, then, you know, try to focus and get shit done. Right. Yeah. Because you can't, cuz you're, you're, you're in this constant cycle.

Shawn: Yeah. And that's of perfection. Like you're trying, this is the kind of thing Yeah. That these. [00:22:00] Manifests. It's the, it's that striving for perfection. You know, I, I can't go until it's absolutely perfect. Yeah. Where, you know, that's not the case

Massimo: here. What we do's not, it's not totally not. It's totally not.

Yeah. You know, another thing that would fuck you up is your attention to detail. A hundred percent. Yeah. Because if your mind is constantly somewhere else, if you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious, right. Yeah. You know, you're gonna miss details in your work. Yep. Which is gonna lead to errors, and that could lead to more and more and more errors.

Mm-hmm. As it is. I think designers struggle with attention to detail often. I think there's so many times things are just missed. I don't think we, we intentfully do it. I think, uh, you know, it's just part of what we do. Mm-hmm. But the thing is, if you're dealing with all these other issues and your mind is clouded, then it's gonna mess this up.

Yes. Communication, collabo. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If I'm dealing with anxiety, depression, it's gonna be hard to, you know, explain my ideas to you or to the team, or to customers. Yep. Right. And I'm not gonna ask the right questions and I'm, I'm constantly gonna be second guessing every single thing that I'm taking [00:23:00] in.

Yeah. And that I'm giving out. Yeah. Right. And, you know, and here's another one. If you're struggling with, with some, you know, mental wellness, overall mental wellbeing, your self-promotion, and. Advocacy would suffer. Ah, right. Okay. And so, this is a funny one cuz Right. You know, imposter syndrome, we all know what imposter syndrome is.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. You know, when you start thinking negatively yourself and thinking you can't do it, but then all of a sudden it's gonna limit your career potential. Yeah. Because you're not gonna promote yourself that much. Yes. You're not gonna promote yourself within a company, you're not gonna feel you can do it.

Yeah. You know, you're not gonna advertise, you're not gonna work on your brand. Mm-hmm. Because you're gonna be like, oh, you know, I'm not good enough to do this. Yeah. And it it's true. Yes. Right? You take this self-pity. And it just grows. And grows. Yeah. So this can totally like affect a

Shawn: designer's world.

Totally. I know I've known people that were so upset about putting themselves out there that they just didn't, and it's a colossal waste of talent. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Like you've got this. Wonderful career possibility, but because you can't [00:24:00] get over, you

Massimo: can't shake what you've got on. Right, exactly.

Yeah. And whether it's, you know, um, induced from the industry or from your past, right? Mm-hmm. The reality is you're gonna learn how to deal with this shit one way or another. Right. You know, whether it's literally, you know, Putting on your boots and going through the shit. Yeah. Or you know, if it's at another level getting help getting medication.

Yes. I mean, depending on how severe it is, right? Yes, exactly. But the thing is, you know, kind of sitting there in self wallow on a regular basis and letting it get worse and worse. Yep. Dude. Like, I mean, this isn't helping anybody, unfortunately. Exactly right. Yeah. Now, Oftentimes, you know, you don't know when it's happening.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Right. Like, you know, normal, the normal signs and symptoms of, of something's wrong with you or something's, you know, your mental wellbeing is not where it should be, is, you know, well, you said it, your father went through like the anxiety part. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. You know, you're constantly worrying or you're scared, right?

Mm-hmm. You know, you difficulty concentrating. You know this, you know, like physical symptoms. Believe it or not, you can sweat, you can shake, right? I can't believe. You know, because again, I, I know people that go [00:25:00] through anxiety and it's, and it's hard to see. Yeah. Right. And again, while some of them, I think it's just because you were coddled way the fuck.

Too much growing up. True other ones I see that they've something that they've been dealing with. Yeah. You know, for a long time. And I have so much more, you know, sympathy for this, you know, and, and this case, so this is where it's like, it's not a black and white one size fits all scenario. That's exactly.

Burnout is an absolute huge common sign and symptom of, of your mental wellness. Yep. Is slipping. Is slipping, right? Yeah. Burnout can cause exhaustion. Mm-hmm. You know, as a designer, decreased motivation, a lack of interest in what you're doing or Or the people around you, right? Yeah. Because you're just.

Burnt out. Yep. You just burnt the fuck out. Yeah, exactly. Stress. Yep. Okay. Stress is a big one that isn't considered well, isn't often looked at. Mm-hmm. You know, as, as a mental illness or, or

Shawn: Yeah, I know, I know what you're saying. It's, it's like, uh, it's like one of those things, like everybody has stress.

Yes. You know what I mean? But stress is like, is almost, uh, [00:26:00] fetishized some, it's true. Like, you know what I mean? Like people, oh, I'm, so you, you've met people that are like, I know, right? I'm so stressed. I don't know how I'm gonna deal with this kind

Massimo: of stuff. It's like, I choose your words wisely, right? Yes.

Because it's not really stressful. Yes. Okay. But real stress, if people do, you know, Feel this way at work and they're constantly going, you know, it can affect you that that can fuck you up physically. Yeah. Big right. Muscle tension. Yes. You're constantly clenching. Yes. And in the middle of the night, you know, like you're flinching your teeth fucks up your sleep.

Yeah, totally. Stress is a hard one, right? Yeah, exactly. Of course we talked about imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm. This is a huge sign symptom of, you know, like your mental wellness is kind of slipping. Depression. Yeah. Okay. Feelings of, you know, sadness, happiness, fatigue, depression, causes change in appetite.

Mm-hmm. Right. And. Difficulty sleeping. Yep. Yep. Okay. And then of course, with that being said, insomnia is a sign. Your mental wellbeing is kind of slipping. Yeah. So these are the common signs. Okay. Of symptoms. Yeah. But the not so common signs. Ooh, addiction. Oh, [00:27:00] I hate to say it. Right. And you know, I sometimes question, I know as I go and pour myself another one right now.

But I can say that there have been more times in my career doing this that I think I, I mean, I used to smoke a lot too, right? How many? How many packs a day? I mean, I say a lot, but really it was under a pack of day. Oh, pack my height. That's a lot. That's still a lot. It is a lot, right? Yeah. But, um, you know, again, I used to smoke.

I don't anymore proud to say, yeah. Um, I never did drugs. That wasn't my thing. Okay. But alcohol, I. Alcohol a lot heavier during my, you know, my, my career than I have as of recent. Yep. So an addiction is something that I know designers are prone to. Yes. And you know, now up here, you know, pot's been legalized.

Mm-hmm. And it's fucking everywhere. There are dispensaries. Every fucking other block. Yeah. It's horrible. Yeah. You know, and don't think that, that, you know, it's non addictive is not No. You're fucking that, that's addictive and that's, that's a bad addiction. Yep. And when you become dependent on that Yep.

You know, that's, uh, an uncommon sign of your mental wellbeing. [00:28:00] Slipping. Yep. Right. Yep. Um, mood swings.

Shawn: Oh yeah. Okay. What's that supposed to mean? Fuck you. I had to, I had to slip in a joke. We're getting really too heavy here. I, I'm sorry. I need a little bit. A little bit, right?

Massimo: Mood swings. Mood swings. Yes.

Huge. Yes. Okay. And not just angry right, but like also irritability. All of a sudden, like, you just wanna rip somebody's fucking head off. Yep. Right? Mm-hmm. Just for no reason at all. But like, good morning, you're like, fuck, how dare you? Why are you so fucking happy? You know, like, right. How about anger, sadness, all these other mood swings.

This shit, this shit's real. It happens, right? Yes, yes. Pay attention to that kind of shit, right? Yeah. Um, another one I thought was interesting was, Vigilance, hypervigilance. Hypervigilance. A state heard of heightened awareness where all of a sudden you're like, it's like you're constantly like on edge.

Like you, you know what you get. Like you pray well come, well, you know what, you know how you feel like when you're overtired Yeah. And you haven't slept. Yep. Yeah. And everything is like, like in high depth. [00:29:00] Right. And you're concentrating on everything. Right. This is actually taking it almost a step further, and this is early sense of PTSDs, believe it or not.

Oh shit. Yeah. All right. Yep. Oh my God. And another uncommon symptom of your mental wellbeing slipping. Mm-hmm. Believe it or not. Perfection. Perfection. And again, that's another one that almost like straddles that line of ptsd. Ts D O O C D. Yeah. Where it's just like all of a sudden you're, it's almost like it's, it's almost like it's an A how alcohol helps people in that addiction.

Yeah. Perfection helps people kind of deal with. These kind of things and everything's gotta be perfect. They, they start, you know, like kind of getting fidgety and lining everything up, and it's just a way that their body's just programming themselves to kind of get through this, this time. Interesting.

Weird, right? Yeah. Wow. So everybody knows the common ones, but these other ones are kind of a little,

Shawn: huh? Yeah, they're a little, there's little sideline kind of thing, but still very real and very important, obviously, right? Mm. These are, these are heavy duty things. I figure if you're close to getting PTs d Yeah.

Then you're in a bad way. You know? You are, you are, because [00:30:00] that shit is.

Massimo: Some serious stuff that is a whole nother level altogether. Totally. But if you don't take care of it on the early signs Yeah, right. This shit happens. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and I think a lot of this is, you know, being self-aware.

Mm-hmm. Right. And that's why we wanna talk about these symptoms. Cuz again, you need to be self-aware of what the fuck is going on. Right, right. And again, you also need to be self-aware. Of how you handle this shit. Mm-hmm. So, again, you know our, I can't speak for you Jean. Mm-hmm. I mean, me, I, I just like a bull.

If something's stressing me out, I just plow through it unintentionally. Yeah. Right. I look at every challenge and I just, I don't want it to get the better of me. Yes, right. I made some choices and sadly, they're not always right choices, but I have to accept the consequences of my choices. Sometimes those are, Sometimes they're shitty, right?

Yeah. But this is how I deal with it. Yeah. Of course. I get overwhelmed. Of course. I get stressed. I st I still question if I'm like burnt out or not personally. Mm-hmm. Right. Like from a physical or from a, a design standpoint. Oh, wow. I do, I do. I genuinely do. And I know I've said this before, [00:31:00] but I, I think I am.

Which I think, um, you know, right now I'm doing a much better job directing and, and being creative director than I am actually being hands on anymore. Right. Wow. I know you need a project to get into. I do. And when I do, well, right now, the Angry Designer Podcast is my project that I get. You go, this is my new what do you My, my, uh, yeah, your new, what do they call it?

When like, an artist would have like their girl and that would be the, the, their source of inspiration. Oh, your muse. My muse. Muse, yes. I dunno why that could, so the angry designer is the angry designer is my muse. Oh. It's, it's kind of like I look through this and, and this is, this is what I think has helped me get through.

Oh, all that covid shit. Yeah. It's helping me deal with, you know, being burnt out. But again, I don't necessarily feel like I'm burnt out in the sense, you know, cuz again, when I get. Project I, I, I'm still able to crank it out. You can do it. Um, you know, maybe not to the same level as, as you anymore, you know, um, some of the people at the back.

Yeah. You know, or, but again, I'm still happy Yeah. With where I am because again, I've just switched my focus. I've accepted the fact that [00:32:00] potentially I am. Creatively burnt out for now. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not burnt out black. Yeah. As we, we called it. Right. It's not burnt out black. Yes. Um, I still love this space with a passion.

Yeah. And I've just, you know, basically changed my focus to other parts of the space. Yeah. Where I am still effective and good at what I do. And I. Generally think I do a pretty good job leading as being a creative

Shawn: director. I think this is why everybody, this is why we have such a happy shop, I think because there's that approachability, you know, and there's that openness I think, which you know, comes down from the top.

Yeah. Whereas that other agency that we, oh shit now. Yeah. There was a lot of, that guy was if you were, were slipping.

Massimo: Yes. You were, your job was on the line. You were, yeah, exactly. Well, fuck, you know what, here, if somebody was slipping or somebody, you know, thought that they were approaching anything like this, we'd find something else for them to do.

Exactly.

Shawn: You would find way, you would talk to them and do your best Yep. To, to help them through whatever tough time it

Massimo: that they're going through. Absolutely. Yeah. So, okay. The common coping strategies. Mm-hmm. You know, that everybody always hears and knows about and [00:33:00] I'm not you. There's not rocket science here.

Right. Self-care. Yep. You're always supposed to sleep better. Mm-hmm. Exercise more, eat better. Right. These are, these are normal. Right. Take breaks when you can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody sees this, right? Yep. You know, you, you seek the support from friends and colleagues Yes. And everything. Right? Like, you know, sometimes we just do and we chat here, right?

Yep. You know, go online, right. And, you know, like, you know, go to talk to a doctor, whatever. Mm-hmm. This is the normal stuff that everybody always hears about. Time management, creative outlets, deep breaths. Yes. Yoga. So sunshine. Yeah. Right. Actually vitamin D, apparently Vitamin D amazing for this kinda

Shawn: shit is amazing for this kind.

So I'll get out for a walk. It's easy. You know what I mean? Like we do that every day. Yeah. You guys do good on you guys without Exactly. Even in the shitty weather, we're still out there. Right. But it's like

Massimo: he said that, cause I didn't go too, because there's a little bit of. Snow outside and I was like, uh, no.

Shawn: Hey, I was gonna call you out about that. You don't have to

Massimo: call. Bring my coat. Not the heavy one. Anyway,[00:34:00]

I didn't bring a heavy coat to cope with the heavy weather.

Shawn: There we go. There you go. There we go.

Massimo: But yeah. Okay. So here is the not so common coping strategies. All right? Okay. Okay. And this is kind of the more. Angry designer approach to this kind of shit. Right. And this is based a little bit more on experience.

Yes. And what we've done. Yes. And it's not for every, But I think it's a really realistic approach to this. Yes. Right. Number one, if you know, you're, you're feeling your mental wellbeing is, is slipping. Right. Feeling self-conscious. You've got doubt. Right. Look for small wins. Yes. Right. Look for some easy small wins and try to have many of them.

Yeah. Back them up. Back to back. Even if it's something as simple as getting, getting that email out that you were supposed to, to doing those changes, to knocking this off your list, get all these things, and then once you start adding up all these small wins, right? Yep. It's like you can look behind you and be like, holy fuck.

I just, I just did all that shit. Damn it. What else can I get done? Yeah, [00:35:00] exactly. Don't be scared again, it's like, how do you eat an elephant? Yeah. One by at a time. Right time. Exactly. So you know, don't try to take that big project on that big client, whatever, right. If you're feeling like you know you're slipping, your mental wellbeing is slipping.

Small ones. Yep. Get a whole bunch of those outta the way, right? Yes. Yep. Set realistic expectations for yourself. Mm-hmm. Okay. I mean, don't get, you know, I'll slam dunk if you don't have a billion dollar customer or if you don't, you know, you didn't win that giant, you know, job that was a make or break for you mentally.

I mean, it, it took us like, 18 years before we had a billion dollar customer. Yeah. You know, and, and again, we've had a lot of big customers mm-hmm. But it took, okay, it took 16 years, but still it didn't happen overnight. Yeah. I had to be realistic. I had to know where I, where my limitations were. Yeah. My team at the time.

And then that's when it was like, okay, we need to ramp up, we need to bring in better people. Yep. We need to bring in better talent, and then we have to go after those people. Yes. So, set those expectations. If you are just a freelancer and you're, you're just starting within the first year. Mm-hmm. [00:36:00] You know, and you're taking all these small, shitty jobs.

Well, don't expect to land a giant, you know, car company. Yeah. Just because they think your style is cool. Yeah. Because the reality is you're not ready to handle that shit. That's right. You're just not. So it's better to pass on that shit and work your way up to a point where you can then direct the team to get that car company when you want.

Exactly. Or that, you know, Pepsi brand or that fucking telecom company. Right. So set realistic expectations. Understand. Mm-hmm. What you fucking signed up for? Mm. Okay. Here you mean this space? This space. Oh, okay. Okay. Right. Understand what you, you're feeling stressed. If this is new, you're feeling stressed.

Okay. We've just listed out a ton of shit. Yeah. That you can expect. You 100% can expect, you know? Pressure, timeline pressure. Constant creative expectation. Mm-hmm. Difficult clients. This is the shit that you can 100 expect. Yep. Okay. So understand that you signed up for this. Yep. Just like these [00:37:00] celebrities who are like, oh, I can't handle the paparazzi.

You know, dude, you are a global. Fucking movie star. Everybody in the world knows you don't think that now you can take your fucking Justin Bieber moment and go hide somewhere. Do you know what I mean? Like this is what you signed up for. Yeah. This is your job. This is part of your job. Exactly. Yeah. So you have to understand this is what it is that you've done.

Yeah. Okay. Ready for this one? This is my favorite. No, you've gotta appreciate the. Yes. That you're on. Okay. Love that. You gotta fucking, don't just look at that final project. Mm-hmm. The end project when it's like you walk in there and you're like, yeah, I've fucking, here's the logo. You're the man, you're the woman, you rock.

Right? Yes. No, no, no, no. Love the journey. Yes. Understand that. You know, you're gonna be crunching, looking for fucking, you know, your research, looking for inspiration, coming up with 1, 2, 5, 10 different variations. Fuck, if you're Alan Peters 15, 20, 1500, he said at exactly times, right? Yeah. [00:38:00] Understand that and love this journey.

Yeah. This is part of what we do. Don't just sit there and try to crunch through it all and get to that end goal, right? Mm-hmm. Love every fucking step of this race. Yep. It makes this whole, and again, then there's no surprises. Yep. Then you can't be like, oh, I'm stressed. Yes. God, what? I need more concept.

How happens? Yeah. No, no, no, no. Seriously, this is, this is that whole hard edged approach, right? Yes. You've gotta appreciate the journey. Yes. Okay.

Shawn: Yes. A friend of mine told me he worked in construction and they didn't have enough work to do for an entire day. Mm-hmm. So that their foreman would just. Don't go hide somewhere.

Just don't be around. You know what I mean? And, and if that's, oh my God, if that's the kind of pressure that you need. Yeah. Like you can't handle the pressure in this space, that's the kind of job that you

Massimo: need to do. Trust me, if you're out there building on a construction site for one or two days, this, this, this won't seem so bad.

This

Shawn: will be so bad. Is this

Massimo: so bad? Exactly. You need to learn how to. Pressure. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yes. I understand that [00:39:00] mental wellness and pressure often go hand in hand. Mm-hmm. Okay. But if there's one thing, you've gotta learn how to handle it. It's, you've got to learn how to handle the pressure and the expectations that are on you.

Yeah. Right. There's gonna be pressure coming, this pressure coming from life, you know, pressure to wear the right clothes, pressure to say the right things, pressure to get on the right route, on your way to work, or to the mall, or this or that. There's fucking pressure everywhere. Mm-hmm. You need to learn how, and then that doesn't even touch the.

That we deal with. Yes. Between deadlines and, and again, deadlines. Clients, clients, you know, creativity. This, you just need to learn how to handle that shit. Yes. If you can't handle that. Yeah. God, I gotta question what you're doing, right? Yes. You might be in the wrong space. Um, what you think at night. Okay.

Is not necessarily reflectant of the reality. Okay. What you think at night, what you think at night. So there's an interesting thing that happens at nighttime. You know, when you wake up at three in the morning and you can't get back to sleep, and your mind is going three in the morning, fucking hate that witching hour, and I'm, I'm infamous for this.

Wake up at three in the morning and I'll be sweating, my heart will be going, I'll [00:40:00] be like, what the hell? And I start thinking this, this, this, this. Well, there's so much going on there that it's like, you know, what you're actually thinking of in the middle of the night isn't even a fraction of as bad as what the reality is during the day.

Huh? There's something about the Nate, something about the fatigue. You know, when you're, you're not thinking, right? Cuz you're tired. Okay, you're tired. The isolation. Right. You're, you're basically, you're by yourself. Yeah. You're in a room. Yeah. You know, maybe you're beside your spouse, right? Yeah. Yeah. But you know, the isolation, the rumination, you're going over the exact same, oh, I should have done this.

Oh, I should have done that. Oh, I wish I done this. Yeah. Oh, what if I do this? Oh, no. Right. And you're constantly going, and, and your lack of perspective, these are all things mm-hmm. That when you wake up in the middle of the night, or when it's quiet, for whatever reason, the lack of sunlight plus all this, plus your own body's chemistry of time of day, right?

Mm-hmm. Fucks with the reality of what's going on. So, Trust the perception of what you're thinking at nighttime because it's not an accurate Oh, I see. It's not accurate of what's really going on. Right. And that's a hard one to figure it out, but it's never as bad. [00:41:00] Yes. You gotta reevaluate your situation.

Mm-hmm. Right? If these are the not so common coping, and the biggest one is you have to reevaluate your situation. This is just true. Yeah. If you're in this, if it's a year, 2, 3, 5, and you're like stressed and you're this and you can't handle customers, you can't handle this, you can't, you know, the reality is this space is.

Changing. Yeah. Right. In fact, it's getting more, it's getting more hectic. Mm-hmm. Pressure's on, you know, people, AI's coming for us. People with a, people who are adopting AI tools are coming after our jobs even faster. Mm-hmm. Because now they can outperform and, and so our expectations are gonna, it's just gonna keep going up and up and up, which I'm excited for.

Yep. In all fairness. Yep. I think this is fucking cool, this hell. Mm-hmm. And I can't wait to see what the next 20 years brings. Yeah. But if you are already stressed out, you need to reevaluate your situation. And if you have. Tap out for your own wellbeing, tap the fuck out. Yeah. You know, and you know, I've heard stories about people leaving their marketing jobs and going to work at Home Depot.

Mm-hmm. And they're happy. Yeah. [00:42:00] You know, some people you, you almost have to face reality. They're just not cut out for this kind of pace. Yep. Pressure. Yep. The environment. Mm-hmm. The ones that are cut out for it. Love it. Yeah. We do. Well, we excel, we love the environment. We love our customers. We take the ups with the downs.

We realize that not everything is gonna be perfect, but not everybody can balance that out. Can handle that. Yeah. And it's okay. Yeah. For some people, quality of life is so much more important. Yes. Exactly. Than this career. Yeah. Right.

Shawn: And for us, for you and I, this was all we ever wanted. So that, that alone gives.

That drive and determination. Yeah. To stick with it through the shit. Absolutely. Through good times, through the bad times, right? Absolutely. Yeah. You gotta, if you're kind of on the fence about this sort of thing. Yep. And maybe, yeah, you're right.

Massimo: Maybe a real, it's not a bad thing. There's no shame. There isn't.

Absolutely no shame at all. Absolutely. Not No. And most important mm-hmm. Not so common coping strategy. Yep. Listen to the Angry Designers podcast, but ye Oh yes, [00:43:00] yes, of course. But in all fairness, you know, um, and not just us, but where I'm going with this is yes. We did start this podcast to give people a really realistic fucking view of what the hell's going on.

Yeah. But don't just listen to our podcast. Go online. Go on Reddit. Yes. You know, go on Quora. Mm-hmm. Right. There are so many design, graphic design forms out there that have people venting, stressing, talking about this kind of stuff. Yeah. If you are in an environment that isn't so, uh, open, you know, and you know, accepting of this kind of shit, that's okay.

Yeah, it is. Okay. Use it as a stepping stone. Go online and find those people. Find your people. Yeah. That you can come to common grounds with. Yeah. Because often you just need to feel like you're not alone. Yes. And that's really in the end what it comes down to. Yes, exactly. Right. If you realize that what you are going and I.

Garon fucking to you. What you're going through is not just you, it's not isolated. Yeah. We, we are often, you know, very, you know, isolated in what we do, and we think [00:44:00] that we're the only ones that are going through this ship, but that's not the truth. Nope. Right. Absolutely not. And sometimes absolutely. It feels so good to know that other people go through the same shit.

Shawn: Yeah. This is true. Yeah. I find too, like, it's so weird because like talking to. Other people. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we can talk and, and the team can talk and, and talking to Alan. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Was was a huge inspiration. Absolutely. Was. So you talk to the man and then you get into his work and see what he's got going on.

Absolutely. Strapping the same thing. Right? Same shit. Such an inspiring, so like we can all. These kind of lessons that other people have put in front of us. Yep. And kind of get what we, what we can from them and see, you know, what they've created. Absolutely. And, and even it's worth looking into the stories about these men and the struggles Yeah.

And the struggles that they went through. I mean, fucking Alan was shocked.

Massimo: I know. He was shocked. Okay. Tell me that's not like something stressful to have to fucking go through and live with forever. Yes. Fuck me

Shawn: man. Like, holy hell. Uh, so yeah. I. [00:45:00] You know this, these are the kind of things where you're just like, this is a source, a good source of getting you out of these kind of Absolut folks.

Massimo: Absolutely. It is. Eh? Yeah. And play drums. And play drums. Play drums cuz, or just beat the shit outta things. Which is kind of like playing drums. It's,

Shawn: yeah, exactly. Not

Massimo: people, but Fair enough. Fair enough. It's not what this is about.

Shawn: No. It's a, another instrument, a musical instrument is, Example or like a, a great stress reliever and it's also a creative element too, right?

Massimo: you, that would cause me so much mental anguish. I don't even know what to, you would be an awesome guitar player. Dude, I wouldn't, I suck. You would, you know why? Got these little stumpy fingers.

I know.

Shawn: I know, I know. I know. Okay. Maybe a drummer, maybe. You would've been great. A good drum

Massimo: drummer. No, no. I tried. My coordination sucks. But I can play a mean harmonica, let me tell you. Yes, yes, that's right. I can. I can. That's right. Yeah. So there you go. So one day for drums, I'll do harmonica and we'll try to get something going.

Yes. All [00:46:00] right. That sounds

Shawn: awesome. We just started a

Massimo: band. Yeah, right. Who needs all the rest of the instruments? So, yeah, that was awesome. Well, I think this was, this was honest. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's not, but we're not psychiatrists. No. We're psychologists. Nope. Or, I, I can't say that this is, you know, this is tried, tried and tested for us.

Yes. This is what we've gone through. Yeah. And you know, again, I don't think we offended anybody directly because again, it's not our intent. It's not our intent with this one, this one is just it. Real. Yes. Yes. And there's some things that we know 100% are not gonna change. And that is this industry. Yeah, that's exactly.

We're always gonna be dealing with customers. Yeah. We're all gonna, always gonna be trying to find problems, solve them. And it's not always gonna be a great day. Yes. It's not. Yeah. If you don't learn to love that journey. Yeah. And realize that there's gonna be shit. All the time. Mm-hmm. And you've gotta deal with it.

You know what, this isn't the space for you. That's right. And that's just, that's just the

Shawn: Yeah. Tough love. Yeah. Yeah. I, it's sad. It's, it's true. [00:47:00] But I mean, you know, with the flip side to that too, it, the payoff is enormously rewarding. Right. You know what I mean? Like Exactly. If you just stick with it. Yeah.

You know, and kind of, and that's so true. And learn to navigate these, these, these red flags that we've pointed out. Mm-hmm. You can make this happen. Absolutely. You can. Yes. And you can make a, it can be a really, really good career.

Massimo: Absolutely. It can A great career, a great fucking career. Yes. Yes. Sweet

Shawn: dude.

Yeah. That was awesome.

Massimo: All right. I'm kinda happy about that. I know.

Shawn: All

Massimo: right. This is good. I wasn't sure how this one was gonna go. Yeah. But, but I feel okay

Shawn: about this. Yeah. I, I, yeah. I think we did this. We did this well, didn't we? Good job us.

Massimo: Yeah. But if we didn't, we didn't quickly jump and tell us. Yes, get online.

Yes. Get on Instagram. Tell us how much that we fucked up and we sucked and everything else. And, and just vent to us. Yes. Okay. Because sometimes that's just what you need. You just need to yell. Yeah. You just need to yell. Right. Fuck yeah. All right, everybody, by all means, hit us up on Instagram. That's where we are.

[00:48:00] And that's often where we're talking to people, whether it's in Instagram or in the messaging. You can always reach us, reach out to us on our website where again, everything's open. Drop us a line on there. We respond to almost everybody that's out there. Hmm. And, um, you know, we're on YouTube. And, um, we're doing more and more stuff on YouTube as well.

So is there gonna be a do opener? Nope. On YouTube or I think if there hasn't already been a dope or Nope. But we'll see what happens there. But um, we're starting to open this back up. Yes. The whole see how or no? Yeah. So brands, logos beware.

Shawn: There we go. All right, let's see it.

Massimo: All right, so I'm gonna go have another drink cuz that's how I cope with shit.

Um, with that being said, my name's Mosi

Shawn: Moe. No, my name's. Stay creative and stay

Massimo: angry. Peace.